Eight weeks after the inaugural Oregon Pinot Gris Symposium, I’m wondering if I was in my right mind? Just because the grape grows here, why should it be the flagship white?

The purpose of this June’s gathering was to create momentum behind the idea that Pinot Gris should be Oregon’s leading white wine along side the much-heralded Pinot Noirs. It was held at Oak Knoll Winery, who organized the event along with Diaz Communications. Through panel discussions, Q&A sessions, input from all sides of the industry, and a massive tasting of many examples of Pinot Gris, the general consensus seemed to be, “Yes, this should be our white wine variety.”

Bottles of Oregon Pinot Gris to be tasted. (image: Diaz Communications)

Greg Lint, President of Oak Knoll, told me in an email, “the Oregon wine industry cannot survive on Pinot Noir alone. Other regions have products that create what I call a product line, and are not just out known for and selling one popular single product.” This was his primary objective in supporting a rise in Pinot Gris’ notoriety.

Since the event I have mulled over writing this piece for nearly eight weeks. Arriving as a skeptic, I was determined to write something renouncing the agenda set forth, but realized it might result in some local outcry. Over the weeks several individual wines and many interviews with local industry leaders slowly molded my perception in the opposite direction. I found myself sitting at my kitchen table, enjoying a Pinot Gris with carry out from my local Thai joint. I was definitely coming around to embracing the variety. Then I came to my senses.

Keynote speaker, Paul Gregutt, at the Pregon Pinot Gris Symposium (image: Diaz Communications)

The merits of Pinot Gris? The keynote speaker, Paul Gregutt of Wine Enthusiast and The Seattle Times, highlighted several: lower alcohol, higher acidity, bracing minerality, purity of fruit, little oak expression, and vintage variation. However, the primary issue is that Oregon has yet to define any style that consumers can rely on. While Oregon is a cooler region, pinot gris is in fact a moderately low acid-bearing grape, especially when compared to riesling, chardonnay, and even pinot blanc. Further, within the context of flavors, the wines tend to be fairly neutral—refreshing, perhaps, but not interesting. That said, the best advice Mr. Gregutt gave was to stop comparing Oregon wines to those of other regions, such as Italy and Alsace. “It’s time to say ‘We make it in the Oregon style.’”

Industry leaders, at the symposium and in subsequent interviews, proclaimed that Pinot Gris should be a focus for two basic reasons: it is abundant—in fact it is the most planted white variety in Oregon—and it is an easy sell given the common marketing around “Pinot country” that is held so highly in Oregon.

Doug Tunnel, owner and winemaker at Brick House Vineyards, recently warned against using total acreage as an index for promotion: “Certainly the argument that there’s a lot planted is a recipe for disappointment. In California in 1998 the most widely planted grape was Zinfandel. Imagine Cali grape growers working to designate Zin as the Flagship Red … only to have it overtaken in subsequent years of planting by Cabernet Sauvignon.”

Other white wines, while not as abundant in quantity or easily woven into a marketing strategy around “Oregon Pinot Country,” provide just as much depth and interest as even the best Pinot Gris being made. And please, do not misunderstand, there is some stellar Pinot Gris being made in Oregon. Several of the wines at the tasting were those which I would highly recommend; it should be noted though, that the majority of those were 2010 vintage wines, a year where cooler temperatures lead to bracing acidity in many whites. In a warmer vintage, forget it.

King Estate Winery, for example, already fully embraces Pinot Gris as Oregon’s white wine. They are committed, and produce outstanding wines that get fantastic reviews—but that does not mean everyone should follow suit.

Thomas Houseman, winemaker for Anne Amie Vineyards, included his balanced insight in an interview regarding the creation of a homogenous Oregon style of Pinot Gris. “Working to make an Oregon Pinot Gris is dangerous. But working together to make better Pinot Gris is important.” He largely spoke to leveraging the diversity of styles that are made in Oregon, a posit that was supported by some at the symposium, though others argued that this lack of style deterred customers from the varietal.

Al MacDonald, Chemeketa Community College NW Viticultural Center (image: Diaz Communications)

Al MacDonald of Chemeketa Community College’s NW Viticultural Center noted that acreage has nearly doubled in the last ten years, approximately 2,700 acres most recently, compared to 1,400 previously. That said, many of the vines planted are still far less than ten years of age. The Eyrie Vineyards have been recognized numerous times for having the oldest pinot gris vines in Oregon.

As for the Pinot Gris wines, an unnamed source indicated that not even Jason Lett, the winemaker at Eyrie, would vouch for the ageability of most older Pinot Gris. In an email though, he claimed to not have enough data to expound on that, having tasted only four older Pinot Gris from their library. Mr. Lett did however note that while he believes Eyrie Pinot Gris will age, others are not made to be held on to. So until other producers are able to use more fruit from more mature vines, it remains to be seen whether Pinot Gris can be marketed as a wine capable of lasting.

The discussion continued with Alex Sokol-Blosser of Sokol-Blosser Winery, and Robert Brittan, owner and winemaker of Brittan Vineyards, discussing soils that were being used. The two agreed that most often the best (in the case of wine, this does not imply “fertile”) were being planted to pinot noir. White varieties, namely pinot gris, were then taking a back seat in site location. Yields are often unchecked, and vigor can be an issue. Mr. Brittan asked, “If we’re not going to give it a chance, and put it on good soils, how are we ever going to make good wine out of it?”

Criticism of selling Pinot Gris arose, and the critique expanded with comments about selling Oregon’s white wines in general. Given than Pinot Noir is the darling of Oregon many seem to lead with that when pitching their wines to distributors or restaurants. Ryan Lumaco of Odom-Southern Distributors of Oregon, challenged winemakers to lead with their white wines. Being someone who is passionate about white wines from the Northwest, I would have to strongly agree. Noted enthusiasm from sales people and producers and increased education around white wines could do much to increase the “product line” that Oregon has to offer, diversifying from Pinot Noir.

Pricing also was brought into question. This seems to be an issue not only with producers, but also hospitality and sales professionals. Erica Landon, sommelier and educator for the International Sommelier Guild, outlined that issue in an email recently: “There is certainly a hurdle to overcome in terms of price point. The consumer has been trained over the years to expect Pinot Gris below $20 retail with most priced under $15, and frankly, most should not be priced higher. However, if a producer is interested in producing a higher quality Pinot Gris the production costs will rise and therefore translate to the cost of the bottle.”

Outside the conference, others took the debate a step further. Several of those interviewed questioned why Oregon should focus on any one white variety, when so many that do well here. Perhaps the most influential argument being that of pioneer David Adelsheim, who does support Pinot Gris wines, but does not believe it should be Oregon’s white wine focus.

“There isn’t—and there is no need for—a single flagship white wine. Chardonnay, pinot blanc, and riesling are all amazing when grown in great vineyards here and thoughtfully vinified. What about albariño, aligoté, arneis, and auxerrois—just to mention the A’s? There’s a whole alphabet of northern European white varieties that could produce exciting wines in the North Willamette Valley. And even more in Oregon’s warmer climate regions. But no region that is known for a red wine is also known for an unoaked, dry white. Bordeaux has its Sauternes, Burgundy and parts of California have Chardonnay. But they are sweet and oaked, respectively.”

This sentiment was echoed in part by Charles Humble, director of marketing for the Oregon Wine Board, calling varieties like chardonnay, riesling, and pinot gris the “Oregon great whites.” Though noting the vast improvements to Pinot Gris wines in recent years, he concluded, “in the end, Oregon is all about quality. So why do it if you’re not going to be the best?”

Moreover, pinot gris is not considered, outside Alsace, as one of the original “noble” varieties (those white grapes being chardonnay, riesling, and sauvignon blanc; the red including pinot noir, merlot, and cabernet sauvignon).

“Among white varietals, I believe both riesling and chardonnay can achieve such heights of complexity and flavor. Pinot gris … not so much. Why would we as an industry tie our horse to a grape that produces large amounts of highly quaffable wine of fairly workmanlike character?” notes Mr. Tunnell.

As you can see, I do not support Pinot Gris as the best option for Oregon’s flagship white wine—especially just because there is more pinot gris planted than any other white variety. Having to make a choice of any white varietal, I would support Riesling, and believe it has the best chance of becoming an amazing champion for the Oregon wine industry.

The stylistic diversity that Riesling offers is so far beyond that of many other white wines. It is naturally high in acidity. It pairs with so many different foods. It requires little to no oak influence. It can achieve immense levels of flavor of fruit and minerality derived from terroir. All the qualities outlined for Pinot Gris and then some. While Riesling still has perceptual misgivings by many consumers as always being a sweet wine, if given the right context (and food pairings), it is not difficult to sell.

In the end, perhaps being “Pinot Noir Country” (even if this is much to southern Oregon’s chagrin) is not a poor decision for marketing our state’s vinous capabilities. Much of the rest of the world is still just tuning in to the fact that Oregon even makes wine. Oregon’s Pinot Noir will get people’s attention, and beyond that it is our work to make other amazing wines—red, white, rosé, sparkling, sweet, dry, and more—and charm them with our stories and our passion. That will keep them coming back.

[author] [author_image timthumb=’on’]http://palatepress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ryan-reichert.png[/author_image] [author_info]Having grown up in the midwest, Ryan Reichert followed his passion for wine to the Willamette Valley region of Oregon. Always the explorer seeking to learn more he has travelled around the United States and through France, Spain, and Italy. He holds the Advanced Certificate with Distinction from the Wine & Spirits Education Trust, is a French wine enthusiast, a certified Spanish Wine Educator, and is working towards certification as a sommelier with the Court of Master Sommeliers. Ryan is the creator and author for Northwest Whites, a site dedicated entirely to the white wines of the Pacific Northwest. You can also learn more about Ryan on his personal website. Ryan lives in Portland, OR.[/author_info] [/author]

26 Responses

  1. Greg Polyak

    Hi Ryan. I can’t wait to pass your article on to the others in our AWS chapter here in Cleveland. As for the article: You have covered a lot of ground here and all invigorating the reader. I dislike critics that trash things and enjoy reading various points of view. The reviewer can state where they stand on the issue allowing others to stand on the other side of the fence. I believe you have done that successfully in your review. While my wife Marcia and I love our Chardonnays we like Oregon Pinot Gris’s over anywhere else produced. True while not complex they are better than a lot of the flavored water type Pinot Gris we have had from other areas. We all need an everyday wine to take us out of our comfort zones and one that goes with most every food pairing. Isn’t that how many of European wines are made and unlike American wines where most everything has to be so strong to be paired with only certain foods? After reading your article I lean toward your side of not forcing Oregon into one varietal but have a hard time touting Rieslings as a better choice because quite frankly too many are too sweet. It’s also hard to think Oregon can out class Germany in this category. Where does that leave Oregon other than Pinot Noirs? I also know I can never go wrong buying a Pinot Noir from Oregon! While I do love Pinot Noirs from other regions some are hit and miss but never has a bottle of Oregon Pinot Noir failed me!

    • Ryan Reichert

      Greg – thank you for your comments about this piece. I really appreciate your input, and would love to hear what everyone at Cleveland AWS thinks on the topic.

      I agree, there are a number of excellent Oregon Pinot Gris out there. In fact, my review for the 2010 Youngberg Hill Pinot Gris was just named wine of the week this week. I have to admit a definite fondness for the 2010 vintage — cooler vintage = higher acid, which is important to me in a white wine, and something I find other vintages of Pinot Gris lack.

      As for Rieslings, I’m a strong believer that these wines have taken a bad rap as “sweet” because of much of the Riesling seen in America years ago. Yes, they can be incredibly fruit-driven wines that have flavors which we perceive as sweet, but many Oregon Rieslings can also have bracing acidity (like the best German wines) that balance any amount of residual sugar. Above all else, I think Riesling is an incredibly good food wine … much like Pinot Noir, primarily given it’s high acidity. Pinot Gris does not have consistently high acidity. That said, there are plenty of Pinot Gris that I’d enjoy sharing with friends–I like your premise of needing a really solid “everyday wine.”

  2. Dan Johnson

    Ryan, the time you put into writing this shows. Thanks for putting together such a thoughtful article while including ideas from so many people. I was curious to see where you’d fall on this, especially when the inspiration is an event focused on getting people to think twice about their standing feelings about Pinot Gris. I’m 100% in agreement that volume should never be a determining factor in deciding a flagship wine of any style. I also agree that Pinot Gris, like other whites suffer from being excluded from the prime growing sites, and the dear love lavished on Pinot Noir. How many producers offer three tiers of any white wine, let alone Pinot Gris? I’m also with you on deciding against it in the end. In truth, I’m not 100% decided between Riesling or Chardonnay, but my off the cuff answer is Riesling, because it’s got a special place it my heart. I was pretty excited to see you call it out as your choice. In the end, I don’t think that we really get to pick what we’re known for. Our dedicated growers and producers put the work in, and time will deliver the proof of what grapes besides Pinot Noir can bring the magic in Oregon soil.

    • Ryan Reichert

      Dan – thanks for your comment. I’m glad you liked the piece, and I’m not surprised that in the end we’re both Riesling fans. I think we’ve definitely discussed such before.

      I did struggle with where I’d land. Honestly, I went in having no good thoughts of Pinot Gris (even as such a big white wine advocate), and have seriously grown to appreciate the varietal in the last 2 months, and determine what I like and don’t like about it. Again, all I can say is 2010 has been a stellar year thus far. Amusingly, my partner and I have also developed a new fondness for Chardonnay as well.

      You’re right: it’s definitely not up to us, but certainly “easy sales” aren’t the best motive for choosing a flagship varietal.

      Thanks, as always, for your support!

  3. Jo Diaz

    There’s a point that’s missed… Oregon needs to be known for more than Pinot Noir, and it’s got to start somewhere. Get the popularity going, and the rest will follow.

    I work with the obscure grape variety Petite Sirah. No one, but my members and I, knows the battles we’ve fought in the last nine years, and people STILL can’t spell it correctly. When you’ve walked in those shoes for as long as I have, you know there has to be an easier way, and there is. Go with an established flow, and the flood happens sooner, rather than later. And… Oregon can use an infusion of something, to open people’s minds to what’s being grown in the state, beyond Pinot Noir.

    Now one said that this has to be a “flagship” wine… No one’s asking for permanency with this variety being the be all to end all, it just has to start somewhere, and Pinot Gris is a natural (especially given it’s recent popularity… like, “Hey, we make that over here, how about giving ours a try?”).

    What we’re suggesting/asking for, is that Oregon begin to expand on something, and do it fairly soon, or be left in the dust by those churning out the marketing effort… including all the import dollars being spent from around the world.

    To have a master sommelier say to me, and another restaurant owner b-t-w, “Does Oregon even grow Pinot Gris?” tells me that there’s a lot of work to do, and now I’m off to do it.

    • Ryan Reichert


      Thank you for your comments and some insight. I love the idea of Pinot Gris as a “gateway” of sorts to other Oregon white wines. Thinking further, I just don’t know if I agree we need something more than Pinot Noir, though. (we’ve already got some crappy Noir that’s hitting the market … I’d be more concerned with that hurting us than trying to expand products)

      Now I know, that seems rather counter intuitive as someone who champions Oregon and PNW white wines. But I don’t know if Pinot Gris can ever be seen as something that makes someone say “Wow, this is amazing … I’ve got to go to Oregon.” Sure, a wine like the King Estates Pinot Gris might very well do that, and they do an amazing job. But it’s not the way, regardless, that I would introduce someone to Oregon wines. I love Oregon Gris for its simplicity, but I don’t want to see Oregon become synonymous with “simple.”

      If producers are going to refine their winemaking styles to start emulating those who are really passionate about Gris (or any white for that matter), yes, that will be a huge improvement. I’m not sure Pinot Gris is going to make that leap for many folks though. Paul Gregutt commented on my Facebook along the lines of “but, imagine if…” we got to that point where we were selling higher quality, premium Gris. It would be wonderful, but I don’t see it happening … nor do I think a market of consumers who have been trained that Pinot Gris is “cheap and cheerful” are going to quickly (not saying “ever” here) embrace it at a higher price point.

      Yes, work needs to be done. You are right on that. Overall I think we should work on making better Gris (and better white wines that we’re proud to sell). But I’m not convinced that marketing Pinot Gris in this way is going to do anything. Now what I’d really love to —and this I feel is the greatest loss from this whole discussion—is some more recognition for Southern Oregon wines. Sure, Pinot Noir gets people to Oregon, but really only to the Willamette Valley effectively. There are some amazing reds and whites being produced in Southern Oregon that I think make our state much more attractive than making us “Pinot (of every color) Country.” Let’s show the world instead that yes, we can compete with nearly any region (California ideally, in this case, regarding domestic consumers) given the diversity of wines we make.

      And btw, you will always be my favorite obscure grape champion. xoxo


      • Jo Diaz

        Ryan, You hit on a very important crux… the word “insight.”

        And, you have a question that needs answering. You wrote, “I just don’t know if I agree we need something more than Pinot Noir.”

        If you ask a sales person, like the president of Oak Knoll (Greg Lint), “Does Oregon need something more than Pinot Noir?” he’ll tell you unequivocally, “Yes.”

        He’s travels the United States selling wine. Can his winery live exclusively on just selling Pinot Noir to say… Iowa, Minnesota, Florida? Absolutely not. That’s what got this whole Pinot Gris Symposium started. Oregon needs to compete on a worldwide market, not just the small stage they’re currently on.

        Here’s the thing, Ryan. I tried making wine once from the grapes I’m growing. Within two days, I had mold all over my grapes. Most winemaker and vit people study sciences while in college. Their degrees are in the sciences, and I’m willing to be that 95 percent of them didn’t take one sales and/or marketing class… Meanwhile, my studies are the reverse. I’ve taken vit 101, enology 101, wine components, and the rest have been sales, marketing, speech writing, and psychology classes. Winemakers hire me to tell them what they NEED to hear, not what they WANT to hear. Left to their own devices, most of them would crash and burn in sales in a heartbeat. I don’t/can’t care what any winemaker says would be better grape to represent Oregon… A more noble one. Heck, cream rises to the top; and they’ll surface, trust me. I stay out of their labs, and just as they wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) trust me telling them how to do their winemaking, they would do well to listen to someone with a track record for achieving publicity goals. It would benefit them… As any current member of my group.

        2002 – 62 growers and producers of Petite Sirah existed.

        2011 – 1,009 growers and producers of PS exist… Only nine years later.

        Do these guys want to sell more wine, or wish that they could get their own favorite grape to be the next best thing? And, what winemaker is going to take that on? They’ve got wine to make.

        The wheel has started rolling, and the most astute in marketing will get on board early on. “They will lead the way and get the most publicity in the process,” said she, as she reflects on the most successful PS producers who have been in it with me for the long haul. 🙂

      • Jo Diaz

        Not yet, because it’s important to stay the course, until we’ve made some headway. Then, who knows.

        Let’s just say there won’t be anything like the PS I Love You group this time. There’s no need to start a non-profit and go through all those arduous hoops; however, an astute marketing group is in order and will be happening as soon as I create the 12 month plan. If this thing takes off… and those who attended are ready to return with great enthusiasm based on the evaluations… it can go in any direction it wants.

        With the right support (and I know which writers will support it), we’ll grow awareness for Oregon. Everyone will benefit, most especially those in the forefront. (The rest will just be keeping up with the Jones… like it always works.) The most innovative and passionate always step forward first… the most exciting of personalities. I think that’s why I love doing what I do; because of the intriguing people I get to hang with hang ~ Those who are innovative and intuition.

        Coming with us?

  4. Jerry D. Murray


    Nice article, well researched. I do have a few thoughts:
    I have to agree with Mr Adelshiem in that there is really no need for Oregon to base it’s “white” identity on Pinot Gris as well with Mr Houseman that an “Oregon Style” not be made. In support of this idea I offer up the example of the New Zealand wine industry. Thier instance on developing a regional style of Savignon Blanc worked fine when demand for that wine was high, now that industry is suffering. Like investing in stocks, diversity is security!
    Riesling does have its limitations. It does require a relatively high amount of heat to ripen; reducing its yeild potential in cool years and demanding the same ground as Pinot Noir to produce good wines. Simply put I don’t think the numbers will pencil out.
    I disagree with Mr Brittan in demanding “good” ground for Pinot Gris. You suggest that the best Gris’s show nice acidity and I agree completely. Planting the variety on thin soils will also require, with only a few exceptions, planting them on warmer vineyard sites. I believe one of the problems with Oregon gris is that it is being planted on vineyard sites that are simply two warm… and decrease our acidity. While I belive shallow soils and the resulting low vigor are very much needed for Pinot Noir, this isn’t the case for Pinot Gris. Pinot Noir, like all red wines, is composed of high levels of Phenols, which are lessened by vigoris vines. Low phenols and “green” characters in a Pinot Noir is a recipie for a crappy wine. The idea behind white wines is to minimize phenolic compounds and more vigoris land aids in that. The “green” characters that “plague” a Pinot Noir can do much to bring “interest” to a white wine like Pinot Gris. I think one of the biggest steps that can advance Pinot Gris in Oregon is to stop thinking that great Pinot Noir ground is also great for Pinot Gris.
    I would also like to mention something that no one seems to want to address. In Oregon we ARE ALL RED WINE MAKERS! We have, through endless experiementation and collaboration, refined our Red winemaking techniques. We have devoted a scant fraction of the attention on improving our white winemaking that we have on our reds. Other wine regions that focus on white wines have much more refined approaches to white winemaking than we do. Take home story; it is a poor musician that blames his instrument. It could well be that the problem with Pinot Gris in Oregon isn’t the grape but the attitude and approaches, with notable exceptions, of its winemakers.

    • Ryan Reichert


      Thanks for commenting! I appreciate the insight on what kind of soils Pinot Gris does well on. Robert and Alex were both discussing this, and I think it was Alex who noted that Sokol Blosser had put Gris on soils they may have typically used for Noir, kept yields low, and ended up making one of their best ever Pinot Gris, selling it well above the normal cost. I do not recall, however, what kind of soils they were.

      I think you bring up a very good point. Very few Oregon winemakers are just as passionate about their white wines as they are their reds (though several come to mind). Excellent point, and one that I think was echoed by the sentiment that few producers do much to position their Gris, or other whites, in the right light for sales.

  5. Winewiz

    I am a winemaker who used to work in Oregon. Most of the Pinot Gris made there are nice, but unexciting wines, that are overpriced (a problem with a lot of Oregon wines). Give me a Riesling anytime over an average Pinot Gris.

  6. J. Rendu

    Very interesting piece Ryan. Just a few reflections as far as “flagship” Oregon white.

    I was fortunate enough to be sitting a few table away from Jason Lett during one of Oregon Pinot Camp 2011 dinners. A bottle of 1988 Eyrie Pinot gris made its way to my table and… I had a double-take once I equated what the label read with what my taste buds experienced.

    This vintage was still amazingly fresh, bright, and glorious. Boring and your run-of-the-mill type? Certainly not. Noble? The nectar I had in my glass was definitively of the most noble and complex kind.

    I also had the chance in May to taste a Belle Pente 2000 Pinot gris that was wonderful and complex and stood out from the line-up of OR Pinot gris that day.

    These two recent experiences reinforce my belief that if a winemaker treats Pinot gris right and with the highest respect –not like a second-tier and convenient cash flow varietal–, it can achieve greatness in the glass.

    In 2009, Eyrie staged a vertical tasting of every Chardonnay vintages made there since 1970. I could not attend, but read Jancis Robinson’s comments on the event. Since then, I have been able to taste a few of these old vintages. This tells me that Chardonnay can also achieve greatness under the OR sky. Tasting other OR Chardonnay producer offerings has reinforced this opinion.

    I have tasted some still alluring white varietals of distinctive age grown in Oregon, including Pinot blanc. I have no doubt that Riesling can meet the same fate even if I have yet to taste some old vintages. You get my point: some OR wineries make amazing whites on par with the best of the best in the world. More important that singling out “THE” Oregon white varietal, let’s keep the focus on diversity and quality when it comes to whites.

    When visitors come to my Tasting Room asking to taste Pinot noir and only Pinot noir, because this is what Oregon is all about, I can only try to convince them that they will be missing on some great white wines, including Pinot gris. -;)

  7. Dave Jefferson

    This is an exceptionally well thought out, well written and sensitive discussion of a very complex subject. High marks, Ryan. The wine industry needs more of this critical and constructive thinking.

  8. Michael Donohue

    A shout out to PG in general and Joe Dobbs in particular. I have known OR PN a long time (25-30y?)-admired St. Innocent and others plenty – like 1er cru shit in a different kind of way and had a few PGs along the way. I now work for Trader Joe and we sold Joe’s PG for a giveaway 5.99 – it was – quite simply- packed with flavor- and acidity and brightness. Bravo!

    • Ryan Reichert

      Glad to hear you’ve had a positive experience with both Oregon Pinot Noir and Pinot Gris, Michael. Do you know what vintage it was of Joe Dobbes PG? Cheers!